Console Damage

[noob]

Okay this might of been posted before, used the search button couldn't fnd anything.


Will damage given/taken be shown in console like css or will it be as 1.6?

Personally i'd like it to be shown

[element13]

I don't think it will, I don't know, but why would you want that to be shown in console?

[noob]

I don't think it will, I don't know, but why would you want that to be shown in console?

Find it rather intresting, damage done through walls etc

[motomike]

I don't think it will, I don't know, but why would you want that to be shown in console?
as a source player, when you play 1.6 it's one of those things that leave you annoyed.

[element13]

I don't think it will, I don't know, but why would you want that to be shown in console?

Find it rather intresting, damage done through walls etc

That's a very descriptive answer... Which lead me to my next question:

How do you find it interesting, and what is included in your "etc"?

[noob]

I don't think it will, I don't know, but why would you want that to be shown in console?

Find it rather intresting, damage done through walls etc

That's a very descriptive answer... Which lead me to my next question:

How do you find it interesting, and what is included in your "etc"?


Ok so lets take wall spamming as an example, for all we know if we shoot someone through the wall in the torso with an awp for 32dmg, we can then calculate:

1: is it really worth using another gun such as an m4 to start spamming that particular spot (less damage, waste of time) OR keep spamming for pointless seconds and wasting ammo.

2: People can start figuring out spots that are more likely to be spammed due to more damage given, in which people will avoid; maybe making gameplay better.


p.s

sry for bad english, not my mother tongue.

[chuck64]

No it does not show the damage and damage taken in console like source =]

[Brainkiller]

I believe it should be included, though currently it is not.

The way it works in Source would allow for ghosting as it shows as soon as you die, to remove this I suggested the damage be shown in console once you spawn the next round, this way you would be able to know how much damage you've done and there wont be any advantaged gained from (eg. telling your teammate to nade or wallbang since the guy is really low hp)

Once you've played Source for a bit you expect to be able to know how much damage you've caused, I agree :oops: it can be frustrating spraying a clip into someone and then not having a clue how many hits/how much damage you've done.

[Lyken]

It would be good, but if you've spammed a wall, then died, and seen you've done damage to someone, you'd know there was someone there.

But I do agree - I also hit the console button in 1.6 expecting to see the damage done.

[KG427]

i dont think it should be put in because of that fact that you can use it as ghosting. im a source player we dont need to know dam.

just show after round .. omg it would never show the dmg you've done after dying (HE)

[element13]

i dont think it should be put in because of that fact that you can use it as ghosting. im a source player we dont need to know dam.

Yea, that's how I feel. It gives the person hit, a disadvantage.

Lets say that it's a 2(T) vs 1(CT) situation. One Terrorist dinks the guy in the head and leaves the CT with 5hp. That Terrorist then gets killed by the CT. Now it's a 1 vs 1. Unfortunately, the Terrorist that died presses console and tells his teammate "I DID 95 DMG TO HIM, HE HAS 5HP!!!!". Knowing this, the Terrorist just sprays wildly and manages to shoot the CT. Round Over.

If the Terrorist didn't know that the CT had 5hp, the entire round would've been played differently.

[noob]

i dont think it should be put in because of that fact that you can use it as ghosting. im a source player we dont need to know dam.

Yea, that's how I feel. It gives the person hit, a disadvantage.

Lets say that it's a 2(T) vs 1(CT) situation. One Terrorist dinks the guy in the head and leaves the CT with 5hp. That Terrorist then gets killed by the CT. Now it's a 1 vs 1. Unfortunately, the Terrorist that died presses console and tell his teammate "HE HAS 5HP!!!!". Knowing this, the Terrorist just sprays wildly and manages to shoot the CT. Round Over.

If the Terrorist didn't know that the CT had 5hp, the entire round would've been played differently.


As people have posted above "only show damage after the round has finished".

[element13]

As people have posted above "only show damage after the round has finished".

That's fine. Unnecessary, but fine.

It's easy to prove that it should NOT be like source which tells you before the round is over.

[geniusreddy]

As the game is currently constructed (you can spam through walls like 1.6), I think the damage report should be shown after the round has been completed, for the same reasons mentioned above.

[deefop]

you don't give people a way to figure out exactly how much health their opponent has left... this isn't supposed to be an awful ez mode source game, putting in something like that shouldn't even be an issue open for discussion.

[Lordearon]

agree, the op idea is redicolous.

and there are ugly amx mods that show how much damage dealt & received in 1.6, I find it not very usefull. (only on pubs too btw)

in a match, it can also give you advantage to get their troop movement (even you never really knew you hit them), I don't think it's even needed at the end of the round...
if you want to practice your wallbangs, get your teamm8 to help or load that controllable bot (potti, amx plugin) on a listenserver.

now for the demoplayer, he should extract that information and display it... I know it's recorded in 1.6 dem format. (you can test that by enable hltv mode and as soon as you are near oppo's you can switch to them and see their health)

But they already hinted the demoplayer / hltv tools could get really advanced later down the line.

[ziaxx]

i wouldn't mind it if we could see it after we spawn.
actually i would love it

[aston]

Show damage done, once the round is finished.

[Twelve-60]

+1 for damage report at start of next round :)

- Twelve-60

[THFS]

The first problem with this in a competitive setting is that instead of concentrating on strategy for the coming round, people are going to be too busy checking how much damage they did last round. Worse than that though, it could also give away some subtle but still very important information. For example, for a T side eco strat your team is grenning stairs then rushing out mid on dust2. You gren stairs and don't get any frags, then rush out mid and all die. You check the console and see that you did damage to three players with those grenades. You now know that the opposing team plays three stairs on their anti-eco setup, even though you shouldn't know this because you never saw or heard them. You can then exploit this information next time you know they'll be using their anti-eco setup. That's just one example, you can clearly see the implications of a system like this being available in competitive play.

This sort of information shouldn't be given to you for free. You should have to earn it via seeing/hearing/fragging enemies, not by doing some lucky damage. It's great for public play, bad for competitive play. Maybe a boolean server side cvar, sv_damageinfo or something like that so it can be used in pubs and warmup mode but turned off once a match goes live.

[Phat]

I believe it should be included, though currently it is not.

The way it works in Source would allow for ghosting as it shows as soon as you die, to remove this I suggested the damage be shown in console once you spawn the next round, this way you would be able to know how much damage you've done and there wont be any advantaged gained from (eg. telling your teammate to nade or wallbang since the guy is really low hp)

Once you've played Source for a bit you expect to be able to know how much damage you've caused, I agree :oops: it can be frustrating spraying a clip into someone and then not having a clue how many hits/how much damage you've done.

I like this idea. As much as i like seeing how much damage i did to someone as soon as i died i find it kind of annoying when used against me, but if they added it in once the next round begins or as soon as the current round ends it pops up somewhere or in console that would be cool.

[Joelw]

I believe it should be included, though currently it is not.

The way it works in Source would allow for ghosting as it shows as soon as you die, to remove this I suggested the damage be shown in console once you spawn the next round, this way you would be able to know how much damage you've done and there wont be any advantaged gained from (eg. telling your teammate to nade or wallbang since the guy is really low hp)

Once you've played Source for a bit you expect to be able to know how much damage you've caused, I agree :oops: it can be frustrating spraying a clip into someone and then not having a clue how many hits/how much damage you've done.

I like this idea. As much as i like seeing how much damage i did to someone as soon as i died i find it kind of annoying when used against me, but if they added it in once the next round begins or as soon as the current round ends it pops up somewhere or in console that would be cool.

It would be better (imo) if when sv_war (sv or mp?) was on then this happened, but otherwise it showed after you die.

[Fokz]

For me it can be even after death. If people find it better to be displayed after the round then OK but it should be displayed.

Basicly it is obvious that if you hit someone/spam and he is low on HP he will draw back immediately, and checking console looking for exact nicname of a guy who have just killed you and calculating how much HP he has left takes you 2 seconds or so, so even that he will just move. And telling you teammate WHERE exactly he is now yeah after he will process whole info and throw this nade he might (and very often is) too late.

Belive me I played source almost 3 years and it didn't have that huge influence as you might think.

[hxcguitarist]

Personally, when I practice with my team, I turn on sv_cheats. This way I can spam as many grenades, flashes, and smokes as need for my team to master the perfect smoke, flash, and grenade throw. I think we should take the amount of damage done and number of hits and implement it as a sv_cheat 1 cvar only! That way during practice, a team can spend their own time figuring stuff out. Now obviously sv_cheats isn't meant for matches, scrimmages, and the like, thus the sv_damagedone 1 cvar is only for practices.

[dunadan]

I suggested the damage be shown in console once you spawn the next round

Why not but I'm totally hostile with the current css' configuration regarding how dead players can spoil the game...

[smalls]

shouldnt show damage because it doesnt really matter unless you kill the guy. You want assist points? And if for some reason they decide to do this. It should be shown after the round. But like someone else said even after the round it changes the gameplay.

[Brainkiller]

shouldnt show damage because it doesnt really matter unless you kill the guy. You want assist points? And if for some reason they decide to do this. It should be shown after the round. But like someone else said even after the round it changes the gameplay.
I don't think so.

[scorp]

dont show any dmg. dont show anything that can be remotely used to ghost or code cheats around and exploit CSP.

if you want to see your dmg, join up with ESEA, scrim with your team on their client, and they will record everything for you like the great gentlemen they are, for a low low price of 6$ per month.

[wtfpwnage]

ye show dmg after the end of the round

[russki]

Let's not be anal about this. Showing damage at the end of the round in console is the ideal solution.

[element13]

It would be sick if you could see the match statistics after the match is OVER, similar to the ESEA stats. That would be crazy!

[motomike]

It would be sick if you could see the match statistics after the match is OVER, similar to the ESEA stats. That would be crazy!
yes, that would be sick. But lets all be honest here, when everyone plays ESEA right after you die you type ".dmg", everyone likes to see how much damage they do whether it is in CS:S or in 1.6. Putting the damage in your console at the end of the round wouldn't effect anything.

[geniusreddy]

It would be sick if you could see the match statistics after the match is OVER, similar to the ESEA stats. That would be crazy!
yes, that would be sick. But lets all be honest here, when everyone plays ESEA right after you die you type ".dmg", everyone likes to see how much damage they do whether it is in CS:S or in 1.6. Putting the damage in your console at the end of the round wouldn't effect anything.

Agree...to both points.

[hxcguitarist]

Honestly, Gameplay first, then we can worry about the little things that make the game more informative.

[sevoii]

Show damage done, once the round is finished.

+1

[defragen1]

you should be able to see it at the end of the round

[rcgnz]

+1 for damage report at start of next round :)

- Twelve-60
This.

[krygenMV]

I believe the best solution would be for CSP to stay with the current CSS setting of showing damage after you are dead, or showing it at the start of the next round if you did not die. In CSS the damage information is a natural part of the game, not an exploit. The information can be used to motivate your other teammates who are alive. I do not count this as ghosting as some other people have said.

Biohaz4rd, that would be excellent if implemented.

[smartin]

Let's lock this thread before some hardcore sourcie comes in here telling us we're all ignorant 1.6ers that don't get anything.

[Fokz]

Let's lock this thread before some hardcore sourcie comes in here telling us we're all ignorant 1.6ers that don't get anything.

"Community CS mod" btw with this attitude I wish this mod will die quick.

As someone smart said (top player from CSS and even your beloved 1.6 NEO in interview with a cadred)

most 1.6 players wont move to csp because they don't care about graphics so why to move to something almost the same and really similar and get used to some changes if it is pretty the same game the already like ?

and css players won't move to csp because 90% of them think that some aspects of 1.6 gameplay are ridiculous and all csp provides is exact same graphics with 1.6 gameplay.

So your stupid bullshit talk about source players is not helping because they should be first to move onto CSP as they already own CS:S and yeah, you have successfuly driven me away as a CSS player from playing this mod as this is just "a thing to play for 1.6 kiddies who are tired of pixels" if nothing what is good cannot be ported from css to this mod.

[haGisson]

why the hell is nobody reading the FAQ before posting?

[madmax]

only ones how like css is cheaters, n00bs, kids that never played 1.6 and players that was allmost pro on 1.6 and is now pro on css.
i play both 1.6 and css and i prefer 1.6 on scrims but i ddont like the grafics any more it was good 10years ago but now..NO :D

[deefop]

1.6 players won't move to promod if it fails, but if it gets the support it needs and offers tournaments and prizes and $$$ bigger than ever before(which is the whole idea) then they will switch. any player would have switched to source if offered the same thing, just look at the CGS. all those players hated source but they couldn't turn down such an amazing offer. the sme goes for europes 1.6 players, if you offered them something like that they would switch. the real difference between csp and css is that this game is being designed with the future in mind, and hopefully it won't die after a year.

[Lordearon]

The first problem with this in a competitive setting is that instead of concentrating on strategy for the coming round, people are going to be too busy checking how much damage they did last round. Worse than that though, it could also give away some subtle but still very important information. For example, for a T side eco strat your team is grenning stairs then rushing out mid on dust2. You gren stairs and don't get any frags, then rush out mid and all die. You check the console and see that you did damage to three players with those grenades. You now know that the opposing team plays three stairs on their anti-eco setup, even though you shouldn't know this because you never saw or heard them. You can then exploit this information next time you know they'll be using their anti-eco setup. That's just one example, you can clearly see the implications of a system like this being available in competitive play.

This sort of information shouldn't be given to you for free. You should have to earn it via seeing/hearing/fragging enemies, not by doing some lucky damage. It's great for public play, bad for competitive play. Maybe a boolean server side cvar, sv_damageinfo or something like that so it can be used in pubs and warmup mode but turned off once a match goes live.

my point exactly, put it in a poll, if the option to show it wins -> server-side cvar it or something... :p

and all you previous guys are going off-topic ...

[Fokz]

Actually you are wrong about a lot of that. The overall goal of the mod is to combine 1.6 game play with source graphics to make a competitive game that would get teams sponsored easier, considering most modern company's are losing interest in 1.6 because its graphics don't require a more modern computer then a Pentium 4 with a 6600 video card. So for those who play competitive 1.6 or CSS, if the mod has the game play and graphics, and the higher potential for getting sponsors, they will move to it when it becomes adapted into leagues and tournaments. As far as the 90% of css players that supposedly think 1.6 game play is ridiculous, that's a terrible statement, for one there isn't any statistics on that, and second off ask any known competitive source player, even the ones who didn't move from 1.6 to source, and they will probably disagree with you. So please take "your" bullshit talk else ware.

So I see you know a lot of competitive source players. Probably more than I have met after 3 years of playing 5on5 competitivly. I can even tell by the opinions I get on my domestic scene that most of source players don't like 1.6 gameplay.

Why the fuck you think they are even playing css ? Because of the graphics ? You are crazy lol. And as quoted from some interviews a lot PRO 1.6 players won't move to CSP because they simply don't care about graphics so this mod won't change a thing, instead it will split scenes even more in a very small share.

[Kryptix]

id prefer to have damage in console so you can tell your teammates..

[vapiant]

I believe it should be included, though currently it is not.

The way it works in Source would allow for ghosting as it shows as soon as you die, to remove this I suggested the damage be shown in console once you spawn the next round, this way you would be able to know how much damage you've done and there wont be any advantaged gained from (eg. telling your teammate to nade or wallbang since the guy is really low hp)

Once you've played Source for a bit you expect to be able to know how much damage you've caused, I agree :oops: it can be frustrating spraying a clip into someone and then not having a clue how many hits/how much damage you've done.

This pretty much solves the problem, Source players will be able see the damage, but it doesn't ruin the game play. Even thou people will stop caring about the damage they did, source players will not leave immediately.

[vapiant]

only ones how like css is cheaters, n00bs, kids that never played 1.6 and players that was allmost pro on 1.6 and is now pro on css.
i play both 1.6 and css and i prefer 1.6 on scrims but i ddont like the grafics any more it was good 10years ago but now..NO :D

True bro, true. I play most CS:S, I'm no pub pro, but I'm freaking psyko in cw. That's the reason why I from day to day check up on this game, to see if it have been finished, because I can't wait to play some serious cs :D

[Lordearon]

let's just wait and see Fokz?

I played 1.6 competitively for 7 years (2000 - 2007) - pubs before that (1996 - 2000) and I'm eagerly looking forward to cspm because css really dissapointed me and cs needs a graphical upgrade, while keeping the speed of 1.6.

Fact is, there are rarely css lans in Belgium (where I'm from) and it's not played at all in Vietnam (where I live) and I know for sure these communities are very willing to switch. (in Vietnam a new game came out which originally came from Korea and was like a cheap clone of cs1.6, but the companies customizing it for the vietnamese market invested a lot of money/time in the community organizing tournaments with cash prizes and you had a lot of cs teams playing that game, while still scrimming 1.6 in Lan). Deff. here, if a game has tournaments, players will play it.

[derWalter]

thats cheating... what you want more? hitsounds?


we need smaller models and more recoil! (compared to css)

[Lordearon]

actually in 1.6 you have hitsounds. if you spam a box with a silencer you can hear if you hit something. not through big walls obviously, but some close corners... it's usefull. a lot of the time my team had 1 close up & the other one spamming/spotting form a distance. The closer one would hear hitsounds through the wall and call it in.

Also the HE hit sounds in 1.6 are usefull (nade over halls dust2 B, nade over Train, ...)

[Chris]

I like being able to see the damage in source, so what if it changes the playstyle of a person playing 1v1? I hope this will be included, but it probably won't since it's a remake of 1.6, so I'm hoping that they will allow us to see dmg done after the round.

[element13]

At first I was a bit unsure about this, but I think console damage would be nice, but ONLY after the round is over.

[Olympus]

Let's lock this thread before some hardcore sourcie comes in here telling us we're all ignorant 1.6ers that don't get anything.

Why? There's no hostility here. This is a perfectly acceptable discussion..on a discussion board.

Personally I think damage and hits would be perfectly placed in console after respawning.

[russki]

Let's lock this thread before some hardcore sourcie comes in here telling us we're all ignorant 1.6ers that don't get anything.

Why? There's no hostility here. This is a perfectly acceptable discussion..on a discussion board.

Personally I think damage and hits would be perfectly placed in console after respawning.

This.

Though there really is absolutely no harm in having the damage show when you die, 1.6 players are just paranoid that something different is something worse. It adds a slightly different psychological game in 1 versus X situation. I've personally clutched 1v5 with 5hp in a cevo main match most recently and the other team knew i had 5 hp after the first player I killed. With wallbanging, knowing how much HP a player has FOR SURE, will add slightly more diversity in end round plays. I mean.. you can assume how much hp a player has ANYWAY, because a good player knows how many times he hit the enemy before he died, and it plays a very small role, since it only takes 4 hits to kill someone with an m4 and 3 with a deagle... anything below 50 hp is mostly considered low health.

Time-of-death hit statistics will only make it easier for teams to come up with sick wallbangs and amazing strats quicker.

[unef0is]

Like in 1.6 TY. No console damage 8D

[SirK]

i think the dmg should be shown source style...
but with 1 small tweak, include the HE dmg^^

its nice when u can tell your mates which enemy got how much HP left^^

[merfs]

best way
sv_console_damage 0 - dont show
sv_console_damage 1 - show in next round
sv_console_damage 2 - show like in css

[SecreT]

Just don't show it in the console.
It's sth what could be deciding in 1on1s when a teamate tells ur enemy got only 20 hp.
That's by far not that exciting as in 1.6 and it helps you figuring where the enemy most probably hides/goes.

[element13]

i think the dmg should be shown source style...
but with 1 small tweak, include the HE dmg^^

its nice when u can tell your mates which enemy got how much HP left^^

That's NOT a good thing. Which is why IF included, it should be shown AFTER the round is over.

Lets say that it's a 2vs1, your teammate spots the enemy and gets a few shots on him, but unfortunately dies.
He checks his console and tells you he did 99dmg to the enemy.

Now it's a 1vs1 and you know that the enemy only has 1hp, the rest of the round will be played differently.
You know that the enemy has 1hp left, all you have to do is hit him once. So what do you do (assuming you're smart)?
You spray, prefire, throw a grenade, or wall everywhere because you KNOW he only has 1hp.

It's a gay feature. It would however, be nice to know how much damage you did AFTER the round is over.

[shumped]

i think the dmg should be shown source style...
but with 1 small tweak, include the HE dmg^^

its nice when u can tell your mates which enemy got how much HP left^^

That's NOT a good thing. Which is why IF included, it should be shown AFTER the round is over.

Lets say that it's a 2vs1, your teammate spots the enemy and gets a few shots on him, but unfortunately dies.
He checks his console and tells you he did 99dmg to the enemy.

Now it's a 1vs1 and you know that the enemy only has 1hp, the rest of the round will be played differently.
You know that the enemy has 1hp left, all you have to do is hit him once. So what do you do (assuming you're smart)?
You spray, prefire, throw a grenade, or wall everywhere because you KNOW he only has 1hp.

It's a gay feature. It would however, be nice to know how much damage you did AFTER the round is over.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA...........

hahahahahahahaha... hahah....

seriously though, if you're teammate isn't a fucking tard then he will tell you how many hits he got in, if he has an ak and gets 3 hits and didn't die he will have less than 15 hp and you will do the exact same that you said that you would do if you knew the enemy had 1 hp.

being able to see the console damage won't change shit for how the round goes, it will only give you a number of how much damage you did. but if you don't have it you will still be able to know at an average of how much your enemy has counting out from how much you hit him. if you get a famas burst on his body you'll know he'll have about 30-50 hp max and your friends will know that and change tactics if needed.

[smartin]

CSP has wall spamming. CSS doesn't, therefore the damage in console feature shouldn't be the same as in css.

[shumped]

CSP has wall spamming. CSS doesn't, therefore the damage in console feature shouldn't be the same as in css.
css has wall spamming but not trough 50 feet thick solid walls. the damage in console won't be affected, just that you can see that you hit him more times for less damage cause you shot trough walls.

[element13]

CSP has wall spamming. CSS doesn't, therefore the damage in console feature shouldn't be the same as in css.
css has wall spamming but not trough 50 feet thick solid walls. the damage in console won't be affected, just that you can see that you hit him more times for less damage cause you shot trough walls.

Shumped has made up his mind. I doubt he'll change his mind.

The truth is that showing damage in console DURING the round "CAN" affect the gameplay. Whether you believe it or not, it's the truth.

[russki]

CSP has wall spamming. CSS doesn't, therefore the damage in console feature shouldn't be the same as in css.
css has wall spamming but not trough 50 feet thick solid walls. the damage in console won't be affected, just that you can see that you hit him more times for less damage cause you shot trough walls.

Shumped has made up his mind. I doubt he'll change his mind.

The truth is that showing damage in console DURING the round "CAN" affect the gameplay. Whether you believe it or not, it's the truth.

Yes, it can. But in no way is that a bad thing, and in no way does it affect gameplay so drastically that you won't be able to play the game. It is just another source feature that's actually useful not only during a game but during practice as well. Everyone that hasn't played past a mediocre main level on a team in CS cannot possibly put forward a valid argument about gameplay, because you simply haven't played on a high enough level to know any intricacies about it, hence why most of your arguments about console damage are irrelevant. End the argument.

[element13]

Yes, it can. But in no way is that a bad thing, and in no way does it affect gameplay so drastically that you won't be able to play the game. It is just another source feature that's actually useful not only during a game but during practice as well. Everyone that hasn't played past a mediocre main level on a team in CS cannot possibly put forward a valid argument about gameplay, because you simply haven't played on a high enough level to know any intricacies about it, hence why most of your arguments about console damage are irrelevant. End the argument.

"Lets say that it's a 2vs1, your teammate spots the enemy and gets a few shots on him, but unfortunately dies.
He checks his console and tells you he did 99dmg to the enemy.

Now it's a 1vs1 and you know that the enemy only has 1hp, the rest of the round will be played differently.
You know that the enemy has 1hp left, all you have to do is hit him once. So what do you do (assuming you're smart)?
You spray, prefire, throw a grenade, or wall everywhere because you KNOW he only has 1hp."

Prove that this ^ isn't true, and I will shut up. You're right, it would be useful for practices. But NOT for an actual match.

[SirK]

i know the differences between the two games, but im a source player and i like the feature^^
of course u play different, but i cant guess how many rounds ive seen in which somebody shouted "omg the last t got 1hp left" and the last surviving ct was runnin around like "mh he got 1 hp so what should hap..." and then he did.
so there is the second side of the coin xD


css has wall spamming but not trough 50 feet thick solid walls
word^^

you just can shoot through anything in souce thats all^^ and it doesnt make that much dmg.

[russki]

Yes, it can. But in no way is that a bad thing, and in no way does it affect gameplay so drastically that you won't be able to play the game. It is just another source feature that's actually useful not only during a game but during practice as well. Everyone that hasn't played past a mediocre main level on a team in CS cannot possibly put forward a valid argument about gameplay, because you simply haven't played on a high enough level to know any intricacies about it, hence why most of your arguments about console damage are irrelevant. End the argument.

"Lets say that it's a 2vs1, your teammate spots the enemy and gets a few shots on him, but unfortunately dies.
He checks his console and tells you he did 99dmg to the enemy.

Now it's a 1vs1 and you know that the enemy only has 1hp, the rest of the round will be played differently.
You know that the enemy has 1hp left, all you have to do is hit him once. So what do you do (assuming you're smart)?
You spray, prefire, throw a grenade, or wall everywhere because you KNOW he only has 1hp."

Prove that this ^ isn't true, and I will shut up. You're right, it would be useful for practices. But NOT for an actual match.

It is in fact true that if you are an aggressive player, you will, knowing that an opponent has 1hp, will try to spray, prefire, throw a grenade, and try to spam everywhere in an attempt to end the round. Now let's look at it from the POV of the player who has 1hp.. if he is a good player, will he stand next to commonly spammed spots in the first place? Will he give away his position to the enemy, regardless of whether or not the enemy knows he has 1hp? The answer to those questions is No. The playstyle of a good player doesn't change, regardless of whether or not the enemy knows he has low hp, because the risk of getting hit is the same. In the end, if it is a 1v1, and the two players know how many hp their opponents have, the game tends to get more interesting as they try to OUTPLAY each other, rather than outshoot, which is most noticeable in higher tier league matches in both CSS and 1.6. In the end, I still know how many times I hit a player, therefore I can assume how much HP he has based on how many times I need to hit him with a given weapon. Hence console damage upon death is just a tool that makes the game more precise in a tactical sense, nothing more. It is not something that will negatively alter gameplay on any level.


edit: I will also point out that both teams know each other's HP from console damage, as the game is 5v5 and the flow of information on a good team doesn't cease until the end of the round, so players on both teams adjust accordingly.

[antyper]

+1 for damage report at start of next round :)

- Twelve-60
+1337

[shumped]

CSP has wall spamming. CSS doesn't, therefore the damage in console feature shouldn't be the same as in css.
css has wall spamming but not trough 50 feet thick solid walls. the damage in console won't be affected, just that you can see that you hit him more times for less damage cause you shot trough walls.

Shumped has made up his mind. I doubt he'll change his mind.

The truth is that showing damage in console DURING the round "CAN" affect the gameplay. Whether you believe it or not, it's the truth.
the enemy having itchy balls can affect the gameplay. everything affects the gameplay, but showing console damage is one of those things that doesn't change much of the gameplay except for the fact that you have a precise number of how much your opponent has left instead of a vague idea i.e 10-15hp left.

though showing it in the end of the round would also work better tbh. make up in the middle, those who thinks it'll affect. it won't as it's in the end of the round. and those who wants, well there you go.

[SirK]

what shumped said^^

[element13]

My point is that there is no need to give an advantage to anyone. Knowing how much hp your enemy has CAN give you a huge advantage. It's hard to make you source player realize this, but it's true.

Not to mention that viewing console damage would be useless on lan. (Considering you can't touch your keyboard or mouse after you die in most lan meets.)

[tiger]

Not to mention that you're not even allowed to speak after you die in some lan meets.

This is dumb as fuck :o (never heard about such lans though)

btw I'm for the damages showing after the round since it doesn't change the gameplay.

[element13]

Not to mention that you're not even allowed to speak after you die in some lan meets.

This is dumb as fuck :o (never heard about such lans though)

btw I'm for the damages showing after the round since it doesn't change the gameplay.

Got the rules mixed up, edited it.

[SirK]

but its pretty cool and everybody can do it so noone has an advantage =)

My point is that there is no need to give an advantage to anyone. Knowing how much hp your enemy has CAN give you a huge advantage. It's hard to make you source player realize this, but it's true.

[element13]

but its pretty cool and everybody can do it so noone has an advantage =)

My point is that there is no need to give an advantage to anyone. Knowing how much hp your enemy has CAN give you a huge advantage. It's hard to make you source player realize this, but it's true.

It's an advantage when it's a 1v1 and one guy has 1hp while the other guy wasn't hit and still has full health.

Not trying to start fights or arguments or anything, but the truth is that in "SOME" cases, showing damage during the round can be unfair.

[derWalter]

why the hell is nobody reading the FAQ before posting?

frequently asked questions

and not forum rules ;)

There should be an delay (3days) after reistring at the forum to read the fack ..FAQ

[shumped]

There should be an delay (3days) after reistring at the forum to read the fack ..FAQ
you also have to do a 6 page essay on what you've learnt from reading the FAQ.

[perfypoo]

Definitely agree that the damage should be shown after the end of the round. I wouldn't want the other team knowing I have 1hp when I'm going to clutch :P.

[shumped]

Definitely agree that the damage should be shown after the end of the round. I wouldn't want the other team knowing I have 1hp when I'm going to clutch :P.
that's why having it at the end of the round is the only sane thing. damage in console is great and having it at the end of the round instead of when you die won't make much of a difference except that you can't tell your teammates how much he has

[heyron618]

(assuming after-round console damage is only option being considered)

It could go either way....chances are you've spammed multiple spots throughout the course of a round and won't know exactly which spam hurt the enemy.

However I think with this added, people will learn how to wallbang more effectively in the long-run. It's a slight advantage for whoever analyzes the console damage properly and uses it to their advantage (could be good for Ts or CTs). It's up to you guys if this is a good thing or not.

[derWalter]

its not PRO to know how much hp your oponent got.
doing headshots only, is pro and you dont need to KNOW.

[russki]

its not PRO to know how much hp your oponent got.
doing headshots only, is pro and you dont need to KNOW.

Why do people have the disgusting quality of talking about things they don't know.

[russki]

but its pretty cool and everybody can do it so noone has an advantage =)

My point is that there is no need to give an advantage to anyone. Knowing how much hp your enemy has CAN give you a huge advantage. It's hard to make you source player realize this, but it's true.

It's an advantage when it's a 1v1 and one guy has 1hp while the other guy wasn't hit and still has full health.

Not trying to start fights or arguments or anything, but the truth is that in "SOME" cases, showing damage during the round can be unfair.

The player with the 1hp knows that the other player has 100hp and adjusts accordingly. The risk factor for both players stay the same, regardless if given the knowledge of each other's hp. Good teams have a consistent flow of information, therefore a good player will still know in a 1v1 how much hp the other player has based on the information given throughout the round by his team. I think you're simply stuck up on the fact that it's something useful that isn't in 1.6, and hence shouldn't be in CSP, which is a completely ignorant and terrible way of thinking. There is no real advantage to knowing EXACTLY how much hp an opponent has, because in this game even and APPROXIMATION, as is in 1.6, is sufficient. So logically, it's only another feature that will make the game MORE technical and more "pro" in the long run.

[element13]

Arguing with russki is like arguing with a wall... He's so damn stubborn...

Pointblank, the current mod doesn't allow you to see damage in console. There will most likely be a poll in the future regarding this, just wait until then. I strongly doubt being able see how much damage you did "during" a round will be implemented though. (At least not until the round is over.)

[russki]

Arguing with russki is like arguing with a wall... He's so damn stubborn...

Pointblank, the current mod doesn't allow you to see damage in console. There will most likely be a poll in the future regarding this, just wait until then. I strongly doubt being able see how much damage you did "during" a round will be implemented though. (At least not until the round is over.)

I applaud you, I tore apart your argument, it's only logical to give up.

[element13]

Arguing with russki is like arguing with a wall... He's so damn stubborn...

Pointblank, the current mod doesn't allow you to see damage in console. There will most likely be a poll in the future regarding this, just wait until then. I strongly doubt being able see how much damage you did "during" a round will be implemented though. (At least not until the round is over.)

I applaud you, I tore apart your argument, it's only logical to give up.

You didn't tear shit.

"The player with the 1hp knows that the other player has 100hp and adjusts accordingly. The risk factor for both players stay the same, regardless if given the knowledge of each other's hp. -russki"

It's true, the player WOULD adjust accordingly, but in some cases it doesn't fucking matter.

Let's say it's a 1v1 on de_nuke, you know your opponent has 1hp. You plant the bomb upper and hide in hut, you wait until he defuses. Knowing that he has such low health, you simply spam from hut towards the bomb when he defuses. You KNOW that you only need to hit him once.

Where if you DIDN'T know he had 1hp, you might play a bit smarter and safer.

If you're too stupid to realize this, then I have no other choice but to give up on you.

[russki]

Arguing with russki is like arguing with a wall... He's so damn stubborn...

Pointblank, the current mod doesn't allow you to see damage in console. There will most likely be a poll in the future regarding this, just wait until then. I strongly doubt being able see how much damage you did "during" a round will be implemented though. (At least not until the round is over.)

I applaud you, I tore apart your argument, it's only logical to give up.

You didn't tear shit.

"The player with the 1hp knows that the other player has 100hp and adjusts accordingly. The risk factor for both players stay the same, regardless if given the knowledge of each other's hp. -russki"

It's true, the player WOULD adjust accordingly, but in some cases it doesn't fucking matter.

Let's say it's a 1v1 on de_nuke, you know your opponent has 1hp. You plant the bomb upper and hide in hut, you wait until he defuses. Knowing that he has such low health, you simply spam from hut towards the bomb when he defuses. You KNOW that you only need to hit him once.

Where if you DIDN'T know he had 1hp, you might play a bit smarter and safer.

If you're too stupid to realize this, then I have no other choice but to give up on you.

And the player with 1hp knows that the T knows he has 1hp, therefore fake defuses, moves away from the bomb, waits till the T gets anxious and peeks, then shoots him in the face. Pretty common play in Source by the way. Your argument is based on the assumption that both players are mid cal-o and have no clue how to play CS. You fail.

[element13]

And the player with 1hp knows that the T knows he has 1hp, therefore fake defuses, moves away from the bomb, waits till the T gets anxious and peeks, then shoots him in the face. Pretty common play in Source by the way. Your argument is based on the assumption that both players are mid cal-o and have no clue how to play CS. You fail.

Think what you want then. Like I said, "If you're too stupid to realize this, then I have no other choice but to give up on you."

[russki]

And the player with 1hp knows that the T knows he has 1hp, therefore fake defuses, moves away from the bomb, waits till the T gets anxious and peeks, then shoots him in the face. Pretty common play in Source by the way. Your argument is based on the assumption that both players are mid cal-o and have no clue how to play CS. You fail.

Think what you want then. Like I said, "If you're too stupid to realize this, then I have no other choice but to give up on you."

It isn't about you thinking that I'm stupid. Counter Strike is an extremely dynamic game in itself, without any changes, it's a constant flow of common plays, counter plays, new tricks, old tricks, and many more things you have absolutely no idea about, because you have never played CS on a high level, source inclusive. Console damage in source has NEVER affected gameplay, never will affect gameplay, and is something so very useful in every tactical sense in CS. It is something new, something that will add just a little more spice, and just a little more psychological game. In truth, my friend, stick to arguing about things you know more about than the person you're arguing with. :)

[scotula]

And the player with 1hp knows that the T knows he has 1hp, therefore fake defuses, moves away from the bomb, waits till the T gets anxious and peeks, then shoots him in the face. Pretty common play in Source by the way. Your argument is based on the assumption that both players are mid cal-o and have no clue how to play CS. You fail.

Think what you want then. Like I said, "If you're too stupid to realize this, then I have no other choice but to give up on you."

It isn't about you thinking that I'm stupid. Counter Strike is an extremely dynamic game in itself, without any changes, it's a constant flow of common plays, counter plays, new tricks, old tricks, and many more things you have absolutely no idea about, because you have never played CS on a high level, source inclusive. Console damage in source has NEVER affected gameplay, never will affect gameplay, and is something so very useful in every tactical sense in CS. It is something new, something that will add just a little more spice, and just a little more psychological game. In truth, my friend, stick to arguing about things you know more about than the person you're arguing with. :)

All your arguments are filled with garbage. All you try to do in your garbage to make your "points" look bigger in a paragraph is by filling it with useless vomit and bashing ones ideas. Console dmg is for after round. If you haven't noticed... This is a promod... They've said that they are mostly porting 1.6 ideas into promod and based on your arguments, you are not going to influence one persons mind about put DMG in console during round.

[russki]

Thank you so much for that enlightening post. I now know that my posts are garbage and I am trying to make my points "look" bigger by filling it with vomit, (not sure how that's physically possible.) I have noticed that this is a "pro"mod, but I'm starting to doubt the name's suitability, due to your presence here, dear "scotula". Please re-read what you wrote, note the last sentence, and die in a fire, you self contradicting twat.

"They've said that they are mostly porting 1.6 ideas[?] into promod and based on your arguments, you are not going to influence one persons mind about put[?] DMG in console during round."

PUT DMG IN CONSOLE BEFORE THE ROUND!

[russki]

PUT DMG IN CONSOLE BEFORE THE ROUND!


SAYYYY WHAAAAAAAAT ^_^

[sNIK]

Damage in console works for source, but it wont for promod, since its possible to wallbang in promod.
I personally don't like the damage in console, it could be interesting to see the damage at the END of a round, but not during.


And the player with 1hp knows that the T knows he has 1hp, therefore fake defuses, moves away from the bomb, waits till the T gets anxious and peeks, then shoots him in the face. Pretty common play in Source by the way.
Pretty common play in counter strike 1.x, you only do it when the enemy has 1 hp?
Worst argument, ever.

[russki]

Damage in console works for source, but it wont for promod, since its possible to wallbang in promod.
I personally don't like the damage in console, it could be interesting to see the damage at the END of a round, but not during.


And the player with 1hp knows that the T knows he has 1hp, therefore fake defuses, moves away from the bomb, waits till the T gets anxious and peeks, then shoots him in the face. Pretty common play in Source by the way.
Pretty common play in counter strike 1.x, you only do it when the enemy has 1 hp?
Worst argument, ever.

Um.. no. It's a common play in general? Comprehension skills? Do you have any? You can wallbang in source with his example as well. You don't know whether it will "work" or not, which in itself is silly, considering YOU STILL KNOW IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS LOW HP, BECAUSE YOUR TEAMMATES TELL YOU IF THEY HIT HIM OR NOT, so your wallbang argument poses zero intellectual value. Next argument.

[haGisson]

What
I mean "WHAT ?!? ! ! ! "

[sNIK]

Damage in console works for source, but it wont for promod, since its possible to wallbang in promod.
I personally don't like the damage in console, it could be interesting to see the damage at the END of a round, but not during.


And the player with 1hp knows that the T knows he has 1hp, therefore fake defuses, moves away from the bomb, waits till the T gets anxious and peeks, then shoots him in the face. Pretty common play in Source by the way.
Pretty common play in counter strike 1.x, you only do it when the enemy has 1 hp?
Worst argument, ever.

Um.. no. It's a common play in general? Comprehension skills? Do you have any? You can wallbang in source with his example as well. You don't know whether it will "work" or not, which in itself is silly, considering YOU STILL KNOW IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS LOW HP, BECAUSE YOUR TEAMMATES TELL YOU IF THEY HIT HIM OR NOT, so your wallbang argument poses zero intellectual value. Next argument.

There you go again, with your lame attempts to insult.
My wallbang argument has no intellectual value?
Considering csp will have the same wallbang spots at 1.6, it does.

I'm eager to hear your argument to keep the damage in console.

[russki]

Damage in console works for source, but it wont for promod, since its possible to wallbang in promod.
I personally don't like the damage in console, it could be interesting to see the damage at the END of a round, but not during.


And the player with 1hp knows that the T knows he has 1hp, therefore fake defuses, moves away from the bomb, waits till the T gets anxious and peeks, then shoots him in the face. Pretty common play in Source by the way.
Pretty common play in counter strike 1.x, you only do it when the enemy has 1 hp?
Worst argument, ever.

Um.. no. It's a common play in general? Comprehension skills? Do you have any? You can wallbang in source with his example as well. You don't know whether it will "work" or not, which in itself is silly, considering YOU STILL KNOW IF YOUR OPPONENT HAS LOW HP, BECAUSE YOUR TEAMMATES TELL YOU IF THEY HIT HIM OR NOT, so your wallbang argument poses zero intellectual value. Next argument.

There you go again, with your lame attempts to insult.
My wallbang argument has no intellectual value?
Considering csp will have the same wallbang spots at 1.6, it does.

I'm eager to hear your argument to keep the damage in console.[/quote]

I've already explained everything there is to explain. It simply makes the game more strategically diverse by adding a factor that can give a competitive edge to the team or player who chooses to explore it and use it to learn new things. My argument is in the fact that it makes no difference whether I know precisely how much HP my opponent has, or approximately, if I am told by my team that my opponent has low health in a 1v1, it makes no difference EXACTLY how much hp he has, I will adjust my play accordingly as to win the round. There is simply no need to remove something that's useful for tactical exploration of the game. The easiest way to decide this is to make a poll, give it to the top tier players in both 1.6 and source, and see where it ends up.

[element13]

My argument is in the fact that it makes no difference whether I know precisely how much HP my opponent has, or approximately, if I am told by my team that my opponent has low health in a 1v1, it makes no difference EXACTLY how much hp he has, I will adjust my play accordingly as to win the round.

If it makes no difference, then why are you adjusting your play?

Why? I'll tell you why. Because now that you KNOW he has low health, you are at an ADVANTAGE because you know a hit or two will easily kill him.

Lets not give anyone an advantage or disadvantage, and just play the damn game.

[sNIK]

I've already explained everything there is to explain. It simply makes the game more strategically diverse by adding a factor that can give a competitive edge to the team or player who chooses to explore it and use it to learn new things. My argument is in the fact that it makes no difference whether I know precisely how much HP my opponent has, or approximately, if I am told by my team that my opponent has low health in a 1v1, it makes no difference EXACTLY how much hp he has, I will adjust my play accordingly as to win the round. There is simply no need to remove something that's useful for tactical exploration of the game. The easiest way to decide this is to make a poll, give it to the top tier players in both 1.6 and source, and see where it ends up.

For the first time ever, I actually, kind of agree with you.
For most good players/teams it wouldn't make much difference, since we know approximately how much HP we take from a hit, so its easy to call out the HP of the enemy.

I still feel wallbanging could be a issue though, since its possible to wallbang through thick walls, imagine you're in the yellow/blue hut in nuke, wallbanging yard, from the window.
If the console damage is implemented, you check your console, and see that you hit someone, without ever hearing, nor seeing anyone.
Same goes for ramp -> lobby wallbang.

Still, I would like to see a poll.

[russki]

You can do that in source dude. It's a non-issue. You hitting someone like that is so rare, and it will be even more rare with smaller models.. nobody will be trying to perfect that. It's more useful to finding common spam spots for start round plays only, and even then, how often do you see good 1.6 teams spamming everywhere every round?

Plenty of times in 1.6, someone will fire a random bullet at a wall while on their knees praying to whomever it is that they pray to, get a headshot, and it's the same as doing damage. Besides the 1.6 hitsounds are loud as fuck so you still know if you hit someone through a wall.

[sNIK]

It's not rare in 1.6, specially not on nuke.
It's not unusual for a team to be down a total for 100+ HP(if not one player short) on nuke, even before seeing a enemy, just from wallbanging.
If you ever watch a HLTV/play a match on nuke(1.6), you will notice that on both T and CT sides, wallbanging is used, allot.
But, to be fair, wallbanging from ramp to lobby can be heard from the hut/floor.
But still, I feel it would make nuke, a heavily CT sided map, since its filled with spam spots like that, where you can't hear the hitsounds.

[russki]

Nuke is a heavily CT sided map in source, but see, if it's a known spam spot, it's known for that simple reason - the players KNOW that it does damage, and they KNOW it does a lot, so letting them know something they already do through console damage is pointless. All the common spam spots are common for a reason, and they're all already used a lot.

You will never see a good 1.6 team spamming RANDOM spots all round hoping to get a kill, that's what I was trying to say. A common spam spot isn't a random spot.

[sNIK]

You wont see them spamming random spots, but:
imagine you're T, running out yard, spam a few bullets at the right side of the garage, check your console, then see that you did damage.
Now, you have the advantage of knowing, for a FACT that there's a CT there, something you wouldn't have known if the console damage wasn't implemented.

And knowing for a fact that you do damage when spamming from ramp room to lobby, is also a huge advantage, cause then you KNOW that there's people there.
You don't know anything for sure in 1.6, you just spam the spots you know CAN hit someone, IF there is someone there.
With console damage you would have a tactical advantage, cause you would know for a fact that there's people where you spam.

[MaveN]

sNIK is right
but my opinion:
a feature that isn't really needed - like the grenadebar XD

[russki]

You wont see them spamming random spots, but:
imagine you're T, running out yard, spam a few bullets at the right side of the garage, check your console, then see that you did damage.
Now, you have the advantage of knowing, for a FACT that there's a CT there, something you wouldn't have known if the console damage wasn't implemented.

And knowing for a fact that you do damage when spamming from ramp room to lobby, is also a huge advantage, cause then you KNOW that there's people there.
You don't know anything for sure in 1.6, you just spam the spots you know CAN hit someone, IF there is someone there.
With console damage you would have a tactical advantage, cause you would know for a fact that there's people where you spam.

Damage is only shown after you die.. not while you're alive.

[sNIK]

You wont see them spamming random spots, but:
imagine you're T, running out yard, spam a few bullets at the right side of the garage, check your console, then see that you did damage.
Now, you have the advantage of knowing, for a FACT that there's a CT there, something you wouldn't have known if the console damage wasn't implemented.

And knowing for a fact that you do damage when spamming from ramp room to lobby, is also a huge advantage, cause then you KNOW that there's people there.
You don't know anything for sure in 1.6, you just spam the spots you know CAN hit someone, IF there is someone there.
With console damage you would have a tactical advantage, cause you would know for a fact that there's people where you spam.

Damage is only shown after you die.. not while you're alive.

Ooh, snap, maybe I shoulda checked the facts before arguing..
haha, then, I don't care if its implemented or not.
Wont make any difference to me.

[russki]

Lol ^_^.

[Chris]

Let's say it's a 1v1 on de_nuke, you know your opponent has 1hp. You plant the bomb upper and hide in hut, you wait until he defuses. Knowing that he has such low health, you simply spam from hut towards the bomb when he defuses. You KNOW that you only need to hit him once.

Where if you DIDN'T know he had 1hp, you might play a bit smarter and safer.



In 1v1 a CT will most likely fake defuse if he knows that the terrorist has low hp. If you have a smart terrorist he will expect this and not peak. Also, spamming walls is dangerous, you give up your position and the guy you're trying to shoot might just show up when you are shooting at the wall. Oh and I'd really miss looking in the console after dying and noticing that I've done 99 dmg to people :(.

[russki]

Yeah me too. I love long range 99 in 1 deagle shots.

[brg]

lol

[DooM49]

I say you should do it with a command like ESEA does, like .dmg and then in the text area it shows how much dmg u've done and what theyve done. And this command only works in the freezetime of the next round.

[scotula]

Thank you so much for that enlightening post. I now know that my posts are garbage and I am trying to make my points "look" bigger by filling it with vomit, (not sure how that's physically possible.) I have noticed that this is a "pro"mod, but I'm starting to doubt the name's suitability, due to your presence here, dear "scotula". Please re-read what you wrote, note the last sentence, and die in a fire, you self contradicting twat.

"They've said that they are mostly porting 1.6 ideas[?] into promod and based on your arguments, you are not going to influence one persons mind about put[?] DMG in console during round."


I guess you don't have the intellectual capabilities that's required to understand what I mean by putting vomit into responses.

My turn to bash you "russki". How about your bitching, half assed responses go somewhere else. You are not needed in a community trying to better itself because all you can do is put down other people. You are the kind of person that always thinks they are right. Reality check, your sentence structure looks like you are maybe a senior in high school.

Now, how did I contradict myself in my sentence? Again, you lack the intellectual capabilities to understand what I wrote. I suggest you stay in high school and take some more English classes instead of using Microsoft Word to edit your responses in forum posts. Sure, I make mistakes when I post things on forums, but I don't proof read my posts like you do.

[russki]

Thank you so much for that enlightening post. I now know that my posts are garbage and I am trying to make my points "look" bigger by filling it with vomit, (not sure how that's physically possible.) I have noticed that this is a "pro"mod, but I'm starting to doubt the name's suitability, due to your presence here, dear "scotula". Please re-read what you wrote, note the last sentence, and die in a fire, you self contradicting twat.

"They've said that they are mostly porting 1.6 ideas[?] into promod and based on your arguments, you are not going to influence one persons mind about put[?] DMG in console during round."


I guess you don't have the intellectual capabilities that's required to understand what I mean by putting vomit into responses.

My turn to bash you "russki". How about your bitching, half assed responses go somewhere else. You are not needed in a community trying to better itself because all you can do is put down other people. You are the kind of person that always thinks they are right. Reality check, your sentence structure looks like you are maybe a senior in high school.

Now, how did I contradict myself in my sentence? Again, you lack the intellectual capabilities to understand what I wrote. I suggest you stay in high school and take some more English classes instead of using Microsoft Word to edit your responses in forum posts. Sure, I make mistakes when I post things on forums, but I don't proof read my posts like you do.

Assumption is the mother of all failures my friend. I am sure capabilities are plural, so instead of "that's", you should probably use "that are". My bitching, half-assed responses you say? I firmly believed that only people have the ability to bitch, you might have affected that belief with your imbecilic statement! Oh wait, you didn't, because you're a fucking cretin. You insult my intelligence, yet you can barely engage me with your apparent lack of coherency and comprehension. You say I am not needed? Who the fuck are you, other than a mongoloid who has been artificially pumped with estrogen? Reality check - I don't need to proof read my posts, because my writing capabilities are doing real well where they are. I thank you for your concern.

P.S. You contradicted yourself again by saying I use Microsoft Word to edit my forum posts (not sure why I would need to do this..), yet my English is somehow, miraculously on a level of a high school senior, when I'm probably just using a thesaurus, right? (I really loled at this one.) Here is another one - I don't need to proof read my posts either, because I am, unlike you, very educated in the English language, and I write correctly to begin with. You, however, are a fucking degenerate, because you can't even write a fucking paragraph without making grammar, punctuation, and syntax errors. Get off my nuts, you terrible fucking troll.

[vapiant]

Even as a source player I would say after round if it should even be their. It could become a lot of "OMG WH, the guy uses wallhack"

Because imagine de_nuke ... no, I'm not gonna use that one :p

But if some guy uses walk and their for was not detected by sound. Instead he was detected by the opponents teammate and his console damage results ... You guys know what I'm saying right?

[russki]

Detecting someone through a wall using console damage is impossible for one simple reason, by the time you die and look at your console to notice that you've done damage to someone through a given wall, that person would already be in a different spot, wherein you will not be affecting the outcome of the round at all with your call.

[shumped]

Even as a source player I would say after round if it should even be their. It could become a lot of "OMG WH, the guy uses wallhack"

Because imagine de_nuke ... no, I'm not gonna use that one :p

But if some guy uses walk and their for was not detected by sound. Instead he was detected by the opponents teammate and his console damage results ... You guys know what I'm saying right?
if an enemy walks and then kills your teammate when he's done damage to the enemy then you'll know where he is and that he's hurt. wtf is your point? it's not like it's gonna give away your position or anything since you've already blown that away by killing the other teams teammate

[perfypoo]

put it at the end of the round or dont put it at all.

[scotula]

Detecting someone through a wall using console damage is impossible for one simple reason, by the time you die and look at your console to notice that you've done damage to someone through a given wall, that person would already be in a different spot, wherein you will not be affecting the outcome of the round at all with your call.

But if you've spammed someone through the wall at the begging of the round and your team mate is in a clutch situation you would be able to tell your team mate that a certain player is low.

[russki]

Detecting someone through a wall using console damage is impossible for one simple reason, by the time you die and look at your console to notice that you've done damage to someone through a given wall, that person would already be in a different spot, wherein you will not be affecting the outcome of the round at all with your call.

But if you've spammed someone through the wall at the begging of the round and your team mate is in a clutch situation you would be able to tell your team mate that a certain player is low.

So?

[shumped]

Detecting someone through a wall using console damage is impossible for one simple reason, by the time you die and look at your console to notice that you've done damage to someone through a given wall, that person would already be in a different spot, wherein you will not be affecting the outcome of the round at all with your call.

But if you've spammed someone through the wall at the begging of the round and your team mate is in a clutch situation you would be able to tell your team mate that a certain player is low.
in 99% of the cases you'll know if he's low even without checking damage if you for example know that you got him trough the wall or if he's playing extremely defensive as if he's only got one bullet from death.

[antyper]

as that was told before, console damage at start of next round. this will not give advantage to anyone and everyone can knew what they have done last round. :> its a must be for me.

[scotula]

Detecting someone through a wall using console damage is impossible for one simple reason, by the time you die and look at your console to notice that you've done damage to someone through a given wall, that person would already be in a different spot, wherein you will not be affecting the outcome of the round at all with your call.

But if you've spammed someone through the wall at the begging of the round and your team mate is in a clutch situation you would be able to tell your team mate that a certain player is low.

So?


So??? There isn't any point in putting DMG in console because that will cause an unfair advantage. You can just rush in, flash, nade, spam and then press ` and tell how much dmg you did to your teammates.

[heyron618]

Russki,

As a source player, I have to agree with most of what you said, however...

It's a bit foolish to think that this knowledge of hp before the round is over will give a player NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER. Yes, you've proved that there are in fact many situations in which this knowledge is counter-balanced, but this doesn't mean all situations will be.

Let's say you know the enemy has 1hp....and yes the enemy knows you know that, so...as a skilled player you're not really gonna do anything that is overly risky and predictable, such as peek. But, since you KNOW the enemy is almost dead, there are things you can do differently, like throw a nade, pre-fire, spam a suspected spot, etc. Plus the fact that you know you only need one hit to kill means you won't aim for the head but rather the body since it's an easier target (something you might not do otherwise).

I get it... you like console damage, so do I...but please explain this: "Console damage in source has NEVER affected gameplay, never will affect gameplay, and is something so very useful in every tactical sense in CS" How can console damage not affect gameplay but be very useful in every tactical sense of CS. Yes, it changes the dynamic of the game. Just like radar does in halo, but that doesn't mean it's necessary...It's really an opinion that should be left to a vote by the community.

And I vote, console damage be displayed but only after the round.

[vapiant]

Even as a source player I would say after round if it should even be their. It could become a lot of "OMG WH, the guy uses wallhack"

Because imagine de_nuke ... no, I'm not gonna use that one :p

But if some guy uses walk and their for was not detected by sound. Instead he was detected by the opponents teammate and his console damage results ... You guys know what I'm saying right?
if an enemy walks and then kills your teammate when he's done damage to the enemy then you'll know where he is and that he's hurt. wtf is your point? it's not like it's gonna give away your position or anything since you've already blown that away by killing the other teams teammate

True it does not give away you exact position, but I think some players will be able to give the information about what area he's in, in a couple of seconds. A good player could math out the possibility of the new position of the enemy, but if the enemy is not detected on your radar or heard, then the enemy would with big possibility call the detector a wallhacker and then 'I figured out with console damage' is not an that good excuse, if you actually get the kill ... HAHAHAHA seriously this is a joke! don't you get it!? Of cause it doesn't matter if you got console damage on, next round or off, because it's not that it's over affective, people run around with 15 -20 HP all the time anyways. Even thou people know a player only got 5 HP, if they know his position they will go for him, if not they'll be going for the objective and just cover their sides.

Seriously wondering about the damage, a good competitive player expects to get hit in the face the first time.

[chuck64]

Console Damage will NOT be put in end of story for real now stop going on with it, This isn't ESEA now.

[russki]

Console Damage will NOT be put in end of story for real now stop going on with it, This isn't ESEA now.

If this is the mentality of the development team and beta testers without making a poll for the good players that actually know the game, then this mod won't do a damn thing for CS. And why are you comparing a game to a league/pug modification?

[vapiant]

Console Damage will NOT be put in end of story for real now stop going on with it, This isn't ESEA now.

Oh my god some arguments they use to shut us up, so smart they are, they are so smart you can't even say anything back.

Seriously we will soon be at page 8, this is something important to some people, you can't just close it like that. Else you will lose players ... Not even after the round thats really weak.

[Lordearon]

you'll be at page 8 as 2 persons keep replying... I bet they'll poll at some point when the issue is at hand

and by poll it, I mean the option where it's a server side cvar & you can bring it up at the end of the round or something like that

HAH!

[Okieant]

Man there's no reason that this thread should be this long. its absolutely fuckin stupid to put damage ANYWHERE in the game.

if at this stage of the game u don't have some idea of the damage u do to someone, u shouldn't be playing.

and to say that the attitude for why they won't address ur dumb issue all of a sudden means that the mod won't do anything for CS is just plain fucking ignorant.

This is the dumbest thread i've seen on here. If u wanna see damage go play in 1.6 pubs.

[Lordearon]

true! - if not seeing it in 1.6 leaves you annoyed, you're obviously not much of a match player. You're probably the one spamming '<x> HP??? plz???? ... W t f'

[derWalter]

it dosent count HOW close it was... it simple wasnt.

dont be so hard on you, such things ruin the fun :)

[SirK]

sure the mod is for 1.6 players who cant stand their own graphics anymore. but there are some source players who maybe want to join the cspcommunity.


Man there's no reason that this thread should be this long. its absolutely fuckin stupid to put damage ANYWHERE in the game.

if at this stage of the game u don't have some idea of the damage u do to someone, u shouldn't be playing.

and to say that the attitude for why they won't address ur dumb issue all of a sudden means that the mod won't do anything for CS is just plain fucking ignorant.

This is the dumbest thread i've seen on here. If u wanna see damage go play in 1.6 pubs.

if you dont need it, dont look at it! its helpfull no matter what you say. your way of thinking is just ignorant, maybe you just stick to 1.6 before changing something?
and the console dmg isnt annoying like AMX, just some clear lines in your console, nothing more nothing less.
even if there were a point to what you said, maybe you just can calm down? i mean why are you so angry? no woman for a while or something?^^

[Lordearon]

"no woman for a while or something"
wow, what a way to make your point ...

now concerning the rest of your post: rubbish. It is bad for matches, like ppl mention: the main reason is ghosting... Why don't we make a little 'blip' sound like in Q3 when you hit someone... I'm used to that 'n I need it... doesn't matter if it makes wallbanging laughable... you should all just open your minds more!

now if you sit back 'n relax it might be a server-side cvar some day...

[haGisson]

flamethread ftw

[russki]

"no woman for a while or something"
wow, what a way to make your point ...

now concerning the rest of your post: rubbish. It is bad for matches, like ppl mention: the main reason is ghosting... Why don't we make a little 'blip' sound like in Q3 when you hit someone... I'm used to that 'n I need it... doesn't matter if it makes wallbanging laughable... you should all just open your minds more!

now if you sit back 'n relax it might be a server-side cvar some day...

Okay.. having a blip sound when you hit someone (something similar already exists in 1.6, by the way, they're known as hit sounds), there is absolutely no ghosting from console damage, it's just a more precise way to let your teammates know how much hp someone has, instead of approximating, which is THE SAME THING ANYWAY. It being bad for matches in your opinion isn't an argument, because having played a monumental amount of matches on a respectful level, I can tell you that it doesn't affect ANYTHING. There is no advantage to knowing that someone has low hp, because THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEIR HP ANY LOWER. It's still up to the player to win the round, thus not making it any harder or easier for ANYONE.

[scotula]

Russki, I don't think you understand. You need to stop arguing with people over this subject. It's over.




Console Damage will NOT be put in end of story for real now stop going on with it, This isn't ESEA now.

[SirK]

he is a beta tester and not a dev^^
beta tester are gamers like you and me except for the fact that they have a beta key xD
so its still up to the devs. and if you read the csp-devteam's "mission statement" closely


For a long time, all of these entities have voiced their opinions, desires, ideas, and goals about the future of professional Counter-Strike; and for just as long of a time, they have been limited by the constraints of the very same game which brought them all together in the first place. Therefore, we strive to present the most competitive, enthralling, visually satisfying - and most importantly - customizable version of Counter-Strike ever created.

youll see that promod is made for the community, so one half does want to dmg to be shown in console and the other half dont.
so the easiest way would be including console dmg. we who like he look in the console and the other ones dont. so easy it is.

@lodearon:
there is no ghosting, you see the dmg AFTER you died. so all you can say is "ive done dmg to somebody".

"no woman for a while or something"
wow, what a way to make your point ...
i just asked why okient is so pissed of and angry?!

[russki]

he is a beta tester and not a dev^^
beta tester are gamers like you and me except for the fact that they have a beta key xD
so its still up to the devs. and if you read the csp-devteam's "mission statement" closely

[quote]For a long time, all of these entities have voiced their opinions, desires, ideas, and goals about the future of professional Counter-Strike; and for just as long of a time, they have been limited by the constraints of the very same game which brought them all together in the first place. Therefore, we strive to present the most competitive, enthralling, visually satisfying - and most importantly - customizable version of Counter-Strike ever created.

youll see that promod is made for the community, so one half does want to dmg to be shown in console and the other half dont.
so the easiest way would be including console dmg. we who like he look in the console and the other ones dont. so easy it is.

@lodearon:
there is no ghosting, you see the dmg AFTER you died. so all you can say is "ive done dmg to somebody".

"no woman for a while or something"
wow, what a way to make your point ...
i just asked why okient is so pissed of and angry?![/quote:1uw2vv9x]

You said what I was going to say! Except I was also going to call scotula a flaming faggot.

[vapiant]

Russki, I don't think you understand. You need to stop arguing with people over this subject. It's over.




Console Damage will NOT be put in end of story for real now stop going on with it, This isn't ESEA now.

True Russki you're arguments doesn't help you out, but with that said anybody who have made a counter argument against him haven't given us a clear answer of why there should not be console damage.

To make it clear using it as a cvar:
mp_showdmg 0 - dont show
mp_showdmg 1 - show damage after round

All us source players want with it is to have the possibility of using it for an conversation, so showing it after the round should be fine with us. If anybody still don't like it, please make it fully clear if you want to give feedback.

[element13]

True Russki you're arguments doesn't help you out, but with that said anybody who have made a counter argument against him haven't given us a clear answer of why there should not be console damage.

I'm pretty sure I gave russki a clear answer why it shouldn't be console damage, or at least not until the round is over.

Go have a look from page 4-7.

[russki]

True Russki you're arguments doesn't help you out, but with that said anybody who have made a counter argument against him haven't given us a clear answer of why there should not be console damage.

I'm pretty sure I gave russki a clear answer why it shouldn't be console damage, or at least not until the round is over.

Go have a look from page 4-7.

Your answer was fundamentally flawed, because I feel you don't posess enough knowledge to argue on the subject.

[TNT]

Console Damage will NOT be put in end of story for real now stop going on with it, This isn't ESEA now.

Why the heck have you ignored what brainkiller said, we've already isolated that showing damage in console at the start of the next round is the ideal solution. If it's not included in 1.04 then that's fine however if you are certain that it'll never be put in CSP then imo that's a -0.2 for the game.

[SirK]

no i think its not the ideal solution, we pointed out that we havnt pointed out anything. atm we got 3 "parties" atm.
-1.we dont like dmg to be shown in anyway because of....
-2.we dont like dmg to be shown during game, only after the end of the round
-3.we want dmg to be shwon when you get killed

[vapiant]

True Russki you're arguments doesn't help you out, but with that said anybody who have made a counter argument against him haven't given us a clear answer of why there should not be console damage.

I'm pretty sure I gave russki a clear answer why it shouldn't be console damage, or at least not until the round is over.

Go have a look from page 4-7.

Learn to read and yes I've read your answer to Russki, oh and if you have not noticed I replied to that. But well I'll tell you again and try to make it more clear.

As CSPROMOD is for competitive play, then wondering about the damage is only, but a waist. Since you have a lot of other things to think about, if both teams are level equal. Money and objective are far more important than kills, well unless you are equipped with a fragg nade, knowledge of last enemy's position and are sure he does not have much HP, then it's worth trying to get the kill. Otherwise objective is more secure.

But even thou as console damage would be after round people don't like it.
Element you've seen any competitive matches, like with real pros?

EDIT: Sirk, -1 and -3 is out numbered and they have not really been giving many posts.

[scotula]

he is a beta tester and not a dev^^
beta tester are gamers like you and me except for the fact that they have a beta key xD
so its still up to the devs. and if you read the csp-devteam's "mission statement" closely

[quote]For a long time, all of these entities have voiced their opinions, desires, ideas, and goals about the future of professional Counter-Strike; and for just as long of a time, they have been limited by the constraints of the very same game which brought them all together in the first place. Therefore, we strive to present the most competitive, enthralling, visually satisfying - and most importantly - customizable version of Counter-Strike ever created.

youll see that promod is made for the community, so one half does want to dmg to be shown in console and the other half dont.
so the easiest way would be including console dmg. we who like he look in the console and the other ones dont. so easy it is.

@lodearon:
there is no ghosting, you see the dmg AFTER you died. so all you can say is "ive done dmg to somebody".

"no woman for a while or something"
wow, what a way to make your point ...
i just asked why okient is so pissed of and angry?![/quote:28un9wbc]


All I'm saying is that he probably has more knowledge about what's being put into the game than anyone else that isn't actually helping make the game.

[smartin]

If it's the same thing. Why put it in? If it doesn't change anything, why bother putting it in?

[MaveN]

If it's the same thing. Why put it in? If it doesn't change anything, why bother putting it in?
true
often someone is asking: hp?
and sometimes it's interesting but you were killed. and thats a fact - i think "console damage" is not needed... for me

over and out

[SirK]

so some of us like it and some of us dont like it.
but you guys who dont like dont have to look at it. you say it doesnt change anything for you , so why not putting it in? i mean wheres the problem?^^
it doesnt require much coding i think so it wouldnt be that hell of a task^^

[antyper]

If it's the same thing. Why put it in? If it doesn't change anything, why bother putting it in?
For you this will change nothing. For me a lot. Isnt that worth it? ;p Console dmg after round will not hur anyone and make some players happy.

[scotula]

If it's the same thing. Why put it in? If it doesn't change anything, why bother putting it in?
For you this will change nothing. For me a lot. Isnt that worth it? ;p Console dmg after round will not hur anyone and make some players happy.

It will make source players happy and 1.6 players unhappy.

[SpencerNuttall]

I like the idea of seeing damage done, this also opens things up for online statistics much like ESEA's features.

[heyron618]

source players: if your only argument is that console damage will not affect the competitive aspect of this game BUT you like it and it's very important to the game then I'm sorry I don't blame 1.6 players for not understanding. Instead of yelling at the ignorant 1.6 players, maybe you could try providing a better argument to 'comfort' the 1.6 players actually listening to you.

1.6 players: any of you who basically says the idea sucks without any reasoning, you're vote on this issue shouldn't count at all. for those that are logical, let me say this...

console damage DOES have an effect on the game, however it DOES NOT impact CS in a negative way...I'll explain myself better when I get a chance, but for now...I have to finish my school work before thanksgiving break (2 more days!!!)

We're all in the csp community together, if you can't accept that we all have the same goal "A BETTER CS" and that we each see different ways of getting there, then you just being selfish.

[vapiant]

If it's the same thing. Why put it in? If it doesn't change anything, why bother putting it in?
For you this will change nothing. For me a lot. Isnt that worth it? ;p Console dmg after round will not hur anyone and make some players happy.

It will make source players happy and 1.6 players unhappy.

Why will you / 1.6 players be unhappy? LOL! Thats like if you don't want to use your undershirt because don't like the color, even thou your t-shirt fully covers it.

[haGisson]

For you this will change nothing. For me a lot. Isnt that worth it? ;p Console dmg after round will not hur anyone and make some players happy.

It will make source players happy and 1.6 players unhappy.

Why will you / 1.6 players be unhappy? LOL! Thats like if you don't want to use your undershirt because don't like the color, even thou your t-shirt fully covers it.

i don't use undershirts...

It will make source players happy and 1.6 players unhappy.

Why will you / 1.6 players be unhappy? LOL! Thats like if you don't want to use your undershirt because don't like the color, even thou your t-shirt fully covers it.

i don't use undershirts...

+2 because I'm so "KASCHTA"

[Chris]

Console Damage will NOT be put in end of story for real now stop going on with it, This isn't ESEA now.

Why the heck have you ignored what brainkiller said, we've already isolated that showing damage in console at the start of the next round is the ideal solution. If it's not included in 1.04 then that's fine however if you are certain that it'll never be put in CSP then imo that's a -0.2 for the game.

Dude, SICK AVATAR. Oh and you're right.

[haGisson]

Why will you / 1.6 players be unhappy? LOL! Thats like if you don't want to use your undershirt because don't like the color, even thou your t-shirt fully covers it.

i don't use undershirts...

+2 because I'm so "KASCHTA"

i'm no "kaschta" :'(

U r "pawnzer" ;))

[fliq]

i love console damage.

[vapiant]

So nobody was able to give an answer = we can have console damage, with out anybody will not like it.

If you want to reply on this post, please read the last 40 posts :D

as far as i Read there will be no dmg showed


(my bad im wrong... its nowhere stated)

[smartin]

Displaying it at the start of the next round seems like a neat solution, yes.
If you disagree, please state why the next round thing is worse than displaying it instantly after you die.

Someone said "It doesn't change anything, you still know how many times you hit him, and therefore his hp."
Well, apparently you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't need this feature to be implemented.

And I still don't think you deserve to know another players hp unless he's on your team. Imagine you're CT on ramp, your mate on cat says in ventrilo that T's are rushing A, while he falls back to outer cat. You start spamming from ramp to hut. You can't know for sure if you hit or not. Then all of a sudden you die from a terrorist who's sneaked down ramp. You check your console and wow, you see that you spammed the shit out of the remaining T team. You tell your friends and they go bananas, since they know that if they see someone, he's dead in like 1 bullet. So they rush from wherever they are, and the T's won't stand a chance since their hp is too low and they had no time to setup. This wouldn't have happened without the console damage.

Even if you don't think this gives an advantage, there's no point in having it in. It's not really part of the beloved gameplay the csp team is trying to recreate. The game doesn't NEED this feature. It's mostly because source players think it's "nice", "interesting" and such stuff. And I understand that you do, you're used to it. But 1.6 players aren't. And after all this is mostly 1.6 upgraded to source graphics, with a couple of new features that are for the better.

And this isn't really for the better. CS is generally not constructed for you to know by number the health of your opponent. Things like these should, at least in my opinion, be up to you to estimate. And if you're good, you're right. If not, then it shows you didn't know after all, hence the reason why it should be kept private. So if you're good enough to estimate your players hp, let that be a skill in itself. Don't just give dmg info free to everyone when they die.

[vapiant]

Soo true! But as we are used to it, we should just as well have the opportunity to have that 'show next round' command. Please don't post anything about 'I like console damage' or 'I hate it'. Just please say if you agree with me and SMartin or if you disagree.

Thank you so much for making it clear Samuel

[haGisson]

[...]
The game doesn't NEED this feature.
[...]

what he said!

[vapiant]

[...]
The game doesn't NEED this feature.
[...]

what he said!

In fact he says the opposite as well, you can't set smartin on one site after that post.

[ephraim]

I personally don't think the damage report should be added into the game, seriously. Think a bit about it. I don't have to give examples as other users already gave some pretty valid ones.


And this isn't really for the better. CS is generally not constructed for you to know by number the health of your opponent. Things like these should, at least in my opinion, be up to you to estimate. And if you're good, you're right. If not, then it shows you didn't know after all, hence the reason why it should be kept private. So if you're good enough to estimate your players hp, let that be a skill in itself. Don't just give dmg info free to everyone when they die.


It would literally spoil the gameplay. I like to think that Counter-Strike was built on the fact that you need skill in order to succed in a 5v5 or any other situation. And if you're skilled, as smartin stated you are bound to be able to estimate what your opponent's remaining HP is. If not, well, that's it. You can't.
It's not that I'd hate the way Source was made and I like 1.6 better. But Source was made as a commercial product that would later be sold so that Valve would make some profit out of it. Remember the time when CS was a MOD for Half-Life ? Remember the time you people have been playing the early beta versions of the game (if there are people that played the beta versions) ? You should think about it from both the perspectives of a 1.6 player and a Source player altogether and try to come to a conclusion, be it in one's favor or the other one.

[vapiant]

ephraim sorry, but we heard that 1.000.000*1.000.000 times and it doesn't have any value. WE STILL HAVE THE NEXT ROUND SOLUTION!

The only reason to if that would not be added is if it's hard to make, but it's not I know enough about coding to say so...

[hsf]

It's got pros and it's got cons

Pros:
It enables other players to work out what health the opponent is on.
It can bring confidence in clutch situations, depending on health

Cons:
All you ever hear is "OH MY GOD 65 IN 2, HOW THE FUCK?!"

[element13]

Here's a huge con: It's unfair. Might as well just put the enemies hp on your scoreboard.

Showing damage as soon as you die can affect how the rest of the round goes. If it's a 1v1 and my teammates tell me that he did 99dmg to the enemy, I will play accordingly. Since I know that my enemy is low, there's no possible way I can lose the because I know I only have to hit him once.

[vapiant]

OH MY GOD! Are you guys retarded? we are now talking about having the damage showed the next round or when you respawn. It's said sooooo many times. We already know pros and cons...

[alba]

Alright, I think the subject has been discussed from beginning to end already and I feel like people are just trying to go "here's the reason why I'm right and you're wrong!" kinda way.